Fuck off! Off!” Bill Ryder-Jones barks gently but sternly, swatting at the hand looming over the synth in front of him. Beside him, James Balmont pulls back, the mischief running through his fingers extinguished as he’s scolded like a puppy whose energy is becoming a bit too distracting. As Swim Deep’s keyboardist slinks back to his seat, he protests through a mock pout: “I was going to play the X-Files theme!”

It’s late August 2025, and Swim Deep have decamped to Brussels’ ICP Studios to work on their fifth album, ‘Hum’. After helming 2024’s ‘There’s A Big Star Outside’, Ryder-Jones is back in the producer’s chair, and alongside engineer Giovanni Lando, the cohort are entering the final stages of recording when NME joins them in Belgium.

Over the two weeks that Balmont, frontman Austin “Ozzy” Williams, drummer Thomas Fiquet and new guitarist J.J. Buchanan have spent in the wood-panelled studio (bassist Cavan McCarthy has had to sit out the trip due to childcare commitments), progress has been good. The band are in good spirits, but a slight undercurrent of tension starts to build in the 24 hours NME spends in their company. In a few days’ time, they’ll return to the UK. Before then, fat needs to be trimmed, details nailed down, and ideas fleshed out until each song reaches its maximum potential. The clock is ticking, and each time they listen back to a track, a discussion follows about what needs fixing, adding or taking away.

Once the layers and details are worked out, though, the world is in for a treat. Even on first, unfinished listen, it’s clear that this album is shaping up to be something beautiful. As Williams leaves the room to work on something by himself, the rest of the band play through a handful of tracks for NME – the results of a “purple patch” of songwriting between the frontman and Buchanan. “Each song should go on a journey,” Balmont shares as one track fades out of the speakers, calling the notion one of this album’s “guiding lights”. You can sense that approach in the likes of the slow, grungy stomp of ‘Mud’ and the emotive beauty of the Buchanan-penned ‘Broken’ – songs that grow, change and weave stories.

While there’s often a marked difference between each Swim Deep album, here they dig deeper into the sound of ‘There’s A Big Star Outside’ – softer, grungier, more songwriterly. Lyrically, it’s introspective but accessible, filled with personal reflections that are moving, but also make you consider where you are in your own life. On the bright, bursting ‘You, Me & Mary’, a touching contemplation directed to his wife and one-year-old daughter, Williams wonders with infectious self-observation: “Is this the best that I can be?

ICP Studios is a fitting place for these reflections to unfold. It’s a space Swim Deep have visited at several points in their journey, first setting foot inside in 2012 when, as a rising act backed by plenty of buzz, they came to record their debut album, ‘Where The Heaven Are We’. “That first year, [we were signed to a] major label, [had] three meals a day, private chef, all that stuff,” Williams recalls. When they came back to record follow-up ‘Mothers’ in 2014, there was “one less meal [a day], [the label were] a bit more cautious with us”. In the evening, as we walk to a bowling alley imaginatively named Brussels Bowling – a consistent fixture in the band’s visits to the city – Balmont regales us with youthful tales of drunken festive nights, dragging Christmas trees to the studio, and “tops off in the club” for one of Williams’ birthdays past.

In 2023, they returned to make ‘There’s A Big Star Outside’, no longer those responsibility-free kids but adults in their thirties. At that time, Williams was about to become a father; his experience of that then-impending reality becoming actualised colours ‘Hum’. When NME visits the band, his daughter Mary and partner Nell have also come over to be together for a few days between sessions, reinforcing that sense that the studio is somewhere the band have grown up.

Across ‘Hum’, Williams meditates on family and the ties that bind us together, the shift that comes both with a new life and the grief of departures. In the same month Mary was born, Nell’s father died – a combination of seismic life events the musician calls “mind-splitting”.

Swim Deep
Swim Deep’s Austin Williams at ICP Studios. Credit: Luca Bailey

“Mary was the thing that brought anyone joy in that time,” he says, slouched in a booth at Brussels Bowling after a chaotic round on the lanes (Williams comes out on top; NME and Fiquet hold up the bottom end, despite frantically studying bowling tutorials on YouTube to aid our game). “You’re mourning, you’re trying to be sensitive, and you don’t want to put any of that on the child. A lot of growth came with that and the songs came out of that.” This album, he half-jokes, is one that can be summed up as “live, loss, love”: “The love makes the loss harder, but the love makes the live easier.”

Through that world-uprooting time, the experience of becoming a dad has reminded him of the purpose of the path he’s chosen. “With Mary, I just write my songs like nursery rhymes or whatever,” he explains fondly. “It brings you back to what songwriting is about – sharing stories and keeping stories memorable for people with melody.”

Around the time of Mary’s birth, Williams questioned whether continuing to make a living from music was “the right thing to do” or if he should find a more stable way to provide for his family. It’s the kind of conundrum that’s plagued many musicians, the financial insecurity of band life causing Swim Deep to lose some members over the years. Today, each of the five bandmates works a day job alongside the band – a necessity that also means they can’t be a “proper band” because their clashing schedules make it impossible to rehearse.

Why, then, do they keep going? “I think 10 years ago, a big part of making music was trying to get recognition,” Balmont reasons the next morning as the band gather around a table in a room lined with plaques celebrating albums made at ICP. “I think now, we’re pursuing creative satisfaction as a more personal thing.” He nods to an interview he did with Flaming Lips’ Wayne Coyne a few years back in his day job as a culture journalist. “I remember him telling me, ‘When you get to this age, it’s not about just being with the lads anymore and having a good time – you’ve really got to love the music.’ I feel like that’s a realisation we’ve come to and that’s maybe why we are still here.”

“Me and Cav have always said that our day will come – we just don’t know when” – Austin Williams

“But also, what would we do if we weren’t doing this?” Fiquet says in a tone that suggests there is no alternative for him. “I’ve never not been in a band since I was 15, except for one month when I lived in London. I wouldn’t know what to do.”

“I saw someone in a band that makes a lot of money say, ‘All of our peers have given up’,” Williams adds. “It’s like, ‘Well, yeah, obviously – they haven’t been making money.’ It does feel sometimes like we’ve been left on the shelf, but I think it’s really important that we carry on to show that it’s possible for bands to do that.”

For those who believe in the band – whether fans, peers or colleagues – Swim Deep still elicit a huge passion. As we wait for our lane to be ready at the bowling alley, Ryder-Jones waxes lyrical to NME about the band’s talents in a way that could convince the staunchest non-believer. Midway through, he makes eye contact with Williams at the bar behind us, a bemused look on the frontman’s face. “She didn’t ask, but she wanted to know – I could see it in her eyes,” Ryder-Jones grins.

The next day, the producer isn’t quite as buoyant, that ticking clock getting ever louder. “It feels like there’s still a lot of work to be done,” he sighs, taking a drag of a cigarette. “It still feels like we haven’t quite cracked some things.” Whether they have time left to tend to those areas remains to be seen, but he’s sure of one thing. “They’re definitely going in the right direction. Sometimes it takes two or three records to settle into a new era. It can be a challenge to your audience, so you [just have to] keep putting out good quality records, which I think we are doing.”

Swim Deep
Swim Deep’s Austin Williams and James Balmont at ICP Studios. Credit: Luca Bailey

‘Hum’ might not mark a fresh chapter for the band in terms of sound, but it feels like their energy has been refreshed by the addition of Buchanan. The new guitarist officially came into the line-up in spring 2025 after Robbie Wood had to quit due to the financial constraints of the band. “It’s completely changed the band, in my opinion,” Williams enthuses. “We never really want to use session musicians because, as great as they can be, we always want there to be a brotherhood.”

As they look ahead to what might come next in this rejuvenated family unit, there’s a pause to reflect on how much they’ve grown. “It feels like we’re much more complete and assured of ourselves,” Balmont suggests. “We know who we are as people now, and I feel like the music is much more wholesome and, in a way, more sophisticated. It just feels like us, like we’ve arrived at the conclusion of who we are.”

Back in the booth at the bowling alley, as balls clatter into pins, Williams’ mind turns to a romantic, optimistic streak that’s run through the band for years. “Me and Cav have always said that our day will come – we just don’t know when,” he smiles. Until that day arrives, Swim Deep will be here making music and sharing the stories that mean the most to them for as long as the world will let them.

Swim Deep’s ‘Hum’ is out on June 19 via Submarine Cat Records.

Unless you’ve been living in self-imposed social media exile for the past six months, there is a high probability you’ve witnessed the choreography of Simon Donnellon. Perhaps via the flirty, candy-hued video for PinkPantheress and Zara Larsson’s ultra-viral “Stateside (Remix),” or maybe in Alyssa Liu’s triumphant 2026 Winter Olympics performance set to the same song, which saw some of Donnellon’s catchiest moves repurposed for the ice. Over the past few years, the London-based choreographer and movement director has made a niche for himself, coaching a starry roster of alt-pop princesses to move unencumbered across stage, screen, and beyond. Speaking to his friend, writer and pop devotee Harald Smart, Donnellon shares his origin story and offers a window into the ‘Pop Girl Bootcamp’ that has helped more than one diva find her groove.

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HARALD SMART: Simon, hi!

SIMON DONNELLON: Harald, hi, how are you? 

SMART: I’m good! Excited to be talking to you. There’s so much to talk about. I wanted to ask how you got started in this field, your origin story.

DONNELLON: What’s pertinent to my job now is that I was a dancer, mostly with contemporary companies, and I graduated when it was kind of in vogue for contemporary dance to be across music projects. So I was doing music videos, dancing in them, and then I got the opportunity to choreograph one for Self Esteem. Then, I started moving a bit more into artist coaching. Back then, it wasn’t such a big thing. Now, I’d say 90% of the musicians you see performing live will have had some level of movement direction or performance coaching. 

SMART: So, what’s the distinction for you between movement direction and choreography? 

DONNELLON: With choreography, I’m creating movement steps that you will learn and repeat. Direction is much more about giving people stimuli and guiding them through stuff. That could be a character-based stimulus or asking, “What color is this song?” or “What does this song smell like?” So they can start to build a world around the song to inhabit, which would hopefully give them more room to play on stage. For me personally, my job is more about setting artists up with the tools to be able to play freely on stage with a level of comfortability.  

SMART: You worked with Romy [Madley Croft] in that capacity, right? How did that process start?

DONNELLON: Yes. Romy was super interesting because I’m a huge fan of The XX. So when that opportunity came up, I was freaking out. Her wife’s a really successful photographer and director. I’d been shooting with her and she was like, “Oh, my wife is a musician and she’s doing a solo project [2023’s Mid Air] for the first time.” 

SMART:  Did you know it was Romy at the time? 

DONNELLON: I didn’t know it was Romy.

SMART: That’s so funny. 

Simon Donnellon

DONNELLON: So, when we started working together, her refrain was, “I just want to feel more confident in moving on stage.” We would get in the dance studio and I’d set up a fake DJ deck with some ballet bars and a table top across them. At first, it was really about diving into rhythm and going back to basics. Giving Romy the tools to start to move a bit freer. I think with a lot of artists, it’s about giving them permission. Because Romy can move, but I think it was just trying to give her a new movement language to use. 

SMART: It must be amazing to watch over a period of time, watching someone blossom. 

DONNELLON: Totally. And I think some people would look at one of her shows and be like, “Oh, what is the movement direction there?” because she’s just moving freely. But actually, from where she began, now she’s running around the stage at Glastonbury. In the new XX show that just debuted at Coachella, she’s singing “Enjoy Your Life” out on the runway, which is something I think she didn’t think she was capable of. She’s always been capable of it! 

SMART: That’s quite beautiful. 

Simon Donnellon

DONNELLON: I think every person, no matter whether they’re a pop star or not, deserves the space to find what it is they do free from intense scrutiny. No one’s doing the best thing they’ve ever done straight out of the gate. I mean, some people I work with are pretty incredible straight out of the gate… PinkPantheress, for example. The music and the tone of what she’s making is so unique. 

SMART: 100%. So let’s get into that. Because I feel like every day I see a fan edit or a meme or something related to PinkPantheress and her stage presence transformation. What kind of phase she was in when you started working together and how has that relationship evolved?

DONNELLON: At the very beginning, before Fancy That, we did the videos for “Picture of My Mind” and “Capable of Love,” which were more narrative.

SMART: “Capable of Love” is incredible. 

DONNELLON: I remember when I first heard that song, I kind of couldn’t believe that she’d made something that epic.

SMART: Yeah, it’s like her version of a power ballad.

Simon Donnellon

DONNELLON: Literally. And so we’d started working together a little bit sporadically and we just got on really well. From that point on, each project had a larger choreography component, especially coming back for Fancy That. I think she’d had a bit of time off and she came back and the music was so good and she was like, “I’m ready to step into it. ” Also, she can groove. She’s got a great sense of rhythm. But I feel like at Glastonbury [2025], she switched something on on show day and we were all like, “Whoa.” That was a real moment of stepping into performance in a way that she hasn’t before. I think she’s come back to this new era and attacked it with such…

SMART: Gusto?

DONNELLON: I was trying to find a synonym for gusto!

SMART: Just say it!

DONNELLON: Gusto! Like, she wants to be eating it up on stage. She wants to be involved in everything. She’s learned so quickly and I can’t take all the credit on that. I definitely got her to a certain point, but she’s also worked with super established female choreographers as well—Charissa Kroeger, Danielle Polanco, Luam, who did the 2025 US/Australia tour. And I think having that time with them, they’ve given her this new confidence. 

SMART: It sounds like a really strong team.

DONNELLON: Yeah, it’s important to Pink that there are women across choreography. Charissa is amazing. We were able to riff off each other and find this newer thing for Coachella, which is a really big, super ambitious show.

SMART: It was so impressive, the number of elements, the storytelling. 

Simon Donnellon

DONNELLON: Totally. And it’s one of those shows that is a statement of intent because she straddles all these different things. She’s the pop girl, but she’s also making this quite alt music.

SMART: It’s also so British as well!

DONNELLON: A vast majority of the team working on the show are actually British. I think that’s been a big thing for finding the nuance and the comedy and all these bits that feel “Big Pop Show,” but also still feel very her. I think one of the other big tasks for this show was finding newness in the movement language. 

SMART: How do you approach that?

DONNELLON: For me, it’s looking at other artists that sit within the same world and what they are doing. Not to copy, but thinking about what it is they’re doing that is resonating. For example, everyone thinks of Gaga like, “Put your paws up.” But Gaga also sits in this ticking world; it’s her specific way of moving. The task for the show was trying to find something that feels very unique to PinkPantheress. What are the Pink-isms? 

SMART: And what would you say those are?

DONNELLON: Always that insane hair flip. She’s in the hips, and she’s really good at finding a mix of fluidity and staccato in the upper body. It’s finding those moments, but also what is the music saying? We still want it to feel a bit punk with a tiny injection of silliness and camp. So, it’s mixing all those things together. 

SMART: What’s been your favorite song of Pink’s to choreograph? 

DONNELLON: Ooh, I mean, I love “Tonight.” For me, it has a special place. It was the first track for her that we really choreographed. 

SMART: I remember that video dropping and everyone being like, “Oh, she’s really doing the thing.” Backing dancers, the whole nine yards. 

DONNELLON: Exactly! So seeing that, editing that into the [Coachella] show and making it bigger and more exciting, that’s been really amazing. And honestly, “Stateside.”

SMART: Oh, we’re getting to her! Tell me about your involvement with that particular song and your response to where it went. 

DONNELLON: My god, crazy. With Pink, the video scheduling is always really reactive. The energy is like, “Okay, the song’s doing well, the fans want something, let’s give their fans what they want.” I had heard someone whisper that they were thinking about a video with Zara, and I was like, “Oh my god.” Then [director] Charlotte Rutherford—who I’ve worked with a lot in tandem with PinkPantheress—called me and was like, “Okay, this is the concept.” It all came together really quickly. There was essentially one day between Pink and Zara’s schedules in which they could shoot it, and the shoot definitely felt really gag on the day. Two pop stars on the precipice of stardom. They’re both doing so unbelievably well. 

SMART: And on their own terms, as well.

DONNELLON: Absolutely, I think it was so intelligent to put both of their worlds in the video and smash them together. It was so indicative of the branding power of both campaigns. Then, to choreograph something that felt really fun and kitsch. The main reference was always “Fergalicious.” 

SMART: Oh my god, I said this. The second I saw it I was like, “This is Gen-Z ‘Fergalicious.’”

DONNELLON: Yes! Even down to how it was shot because a lot of the time things are shot on Steadicam, roaming around. But Charlotte was like, “No, I want straight-on choreo.” 

SMART: Old school. 

DONNELLON: Obviously the song was having a moment, but I don’t think anyone really expected how big it was going to go. 

SMART: How did you approach the choreo? 

DONNELLON: Sometimes Pink is a fun challenge. Often my contemporary [dance] background can be really useful to avoid it leaning too far into stereotypical pop. On Stateside, my associate choreographer, Angelica Wolańska, was super helpful. It’s really helpful to ideate with a female choreographer. The work feels more rounded. With the male dancers, we wanted to stay in this really masc place but, like, a bit camp.

SMART: Metrosexual!

DONNELLON: Yes! Charlotte sent me this reference from a Madness video where they’re walking in a particular way. At first I was like, “Whoa, that’s such an off-piste ref.” But then, in the context, those off-piste moments really work. And, obviously, all the boys falling and the room shaking when Zara hits her run—

SMART: That’s so good.  

DONNELLON: But Pink is really experienced with the music video thing now. She knows her angles. She can step on set and just own it. Also, her and Zara being together, they both lifted each other up so much. It was really nice to watch. Zara had toured the night before in Stockholm, flown in that morning. We’d sent her the choreo and we ran it through with her twice and she was like, “Got it.” Just real star energy. The whole thing was such a great experience. 

SMART: It’s heartening to hear that the mutual support is so strong and genuine. 

DONNELLON: Oh my god, totally. I think we’re in an era of female stars genuinely supporting each other.

SMART: I think another key thing is they’re being cute and sexy, but it’s not two women together who are just being sexual for the male gaze. It’s for the girls who want to get cute and look cute and hang out with their friends…And the gays, of course! 

DONNELLON: Very much so.

Simon Donnellon

SMART: What’s your favorite choreo moment from the video?

DONNELLON: I love the big tableau with Pink sitting on the guys’ shoulders and Zara laying on the floor. I was thinking about Renaissance paintings…and Gentleman Prefer Blondes!

SMART: Yes! Those moments are incredible. How did it feel to see Alyssa Liu perform parts of that choreography on the ice at the Winter Olympics?

DONNELLON: Crazy, crazy, crazy. To see something you’ve done, my little pop choreo, being performed on a stage like that even for a second…Working in this profession, you’re around a lot of famous people at work. There’s certain people that I’m starstruck by for sure, but I think with most people you have a level of professionalism, like, that’s just another person. But something about that moment was like, “Wow, okay. This is kind of crazy.” 

SMART: I feel like as a choreographer or a movement director, that must be the pinnacle.

DONNELLON: Oh, it’s gag

SMART: Where do you go from there? 

DONNELLON: I’m quite excited to get back to some fashion stuff, and then this year’s festival season. And then it’s thinking about other artists on my dream board…I would die to do Rosalía!  

 
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